Boob Stare Etiquette!
08.26.13 | Share: Share on Twitter Share on Facebook
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Totally Married Podcast
Episode 93
First off, Andy and Elizabeth discuss the massive follow up to last episodes discussion regarding division of household labor in their own relationship and let you know what sort of compromises they came to - whew! Then they dive into listener questions about how to build distance and boundaries in a friendship with a co-worker, how to test the waters with a friend whom you’d like to be more than a friend (but not at the sake of the friendship!), whether or not it’s worth it to go to a more expensive “dream” college or stick with a practical state school, how to move on from a relationship that ended with no closure whatsoever, and lastly…. Are boob stares kosher? If so, how? Enjoy!
22 Comments!
In regards to the first emailer, I think it’s likely she told him about her previous guy “friends” as a gentle warning. She probably knows how he feels and is trying to set parameters for their relationship. It’s common for the one pining to be completely oblivious to how transparent they’re being.
If they are close, then she’s already considered it. His best bet is to just let it go. I know he thinks that he values the friendship most, but once it’s out there; it’ll feel like everything has an angle. It’ll be hard for himself to discern what he’s doing out of friendship or as a last ditch effort to turn her.
He has to ask himself, is he really in a place where he can just drop it if she says no? It’s not just about good intentions, but it’s also about your headspace. And he somehow missed a fairly obvious warning or decided it did not apply to him. That’s not a great sign.
He should try to distance himself from his feelings and not use them to justify being selfish. She can change her mind, people do all the time. But what’s attractive about throwing a hail mary when you know someone is at their most vulnerable and needs your friendship the most?
To the high school senior-
First of all I would say don’t sweat it. Applying for college is the fucking worst. It sucks for everyone. I agonized over getting into college for all of junior and senior year of high school and it was miserable. I got into the school I had dreamed of (a small, private, women’s college) and I loved every minute of my time there. Which only ended up being a year and a half. I had a lot of personal problems (mental health, family issues) and I ended up having to leave that school in the middle of my sophomore year. Since leaving that school that I loved so much, I’ve taken classes at a larger state university, online, and at a local community college, trying to get the credits I need to have a successful transfer to the university I’ll end up graduating from. (As an aside- I’m studying early childhood and want to pursue graduate degrees in the same field, so my degree will be relevant to my career in the future) What I’ve learned is that there is no one, right way to do college. There are a lot of options and all of them are just as good- just different. I would check and see how much scholarship you can get to your dream school. I had almost half my tuition paid by scholarship when I was at private school. You can also do your general education classes at a cheaper, in-state school and then do your junior and senior year at your dream school- it would cost you much less and you would still graduate from a better program and get the same great education in your field of study. Beyond that- any school is what you make of it. If you go into with a good attitude about the school and a willingness to work hard and use every opportunity you can, you’ll have a good experience and education at almost any school. That sounds like something a parent would tell you, but it really is true and I had to learn that the hard way. As for dealing with rejection from schools- cry, eat too much candy, then move on. You’ll be great where ever life leads you. It seems like the end of the world right now, but it really isn’t. It’s a stage in life and it’s only a few years and you can do so many great things no matter what you do for college.
I have to agree with the advice about going to a state school rather than something super expensive that will put you into debt. I had a room mate going to a private school who was paying about $50k a semester while I was going to UCF and paying $2,500-$3,000 per semester in tuition which was all paid for by scholarships. Tuition was so cheap I had scholarship money left over to pay for housing as well and went to college for 6 years without my mom paying a cent and never going into debt.
I think there are only a very few instances where the crazy expensive schools actually matter. Especially for undergraduate degrees. If you do end up wanting to go to a higher tier school for your graduate degree then you will be glad you got your bachelor’s for so cheap and aren’t already in huge debt while going for higher education.
I had a classmate who was paying for school after being in the marines for 4 years, one who came from Pakistan and lived as a resident for 2 years in order to pay in-state tuition, and one who started off going to a community college first for 2 years in order to pay less. All of us have the same job opportunities as those in our field who went to private schools but we aren’t in debt and paid for college ourselves.
I wouldn’t ever judge someone who wanted to go to their particular dream school, but I really think some end up regretting it when they’re paying off huge debts for the rest of their life. Also, going to a cheaper state school for your bachelor’s degree affords you the time to switch majors if you end up wanting to change. I started off in Electrical Engineering and was able to switch to Computer Science without feeling like I had wasted a huge amount of money.
I think starting at a state school (or even a community college) is a very great way to start your education.
To the person applying to college: it really all depends on what you want to do in the future. Do you want to go to med school? Pharmacy school? Do you want to get into industry after college or do you want to get a PhD and stay in academia? Pedigree does matter in science, especially in academia, but I think which grad school or med school you go to matters more than where you got your undergrad degree.
I went to a small liberal arts college, majored in chemistry and got into a good graduate program. Not Ivy League, but that’s not what I was looking for. Now, after my PhD, I’m working at a university (a step up from my grad school), with a researcher well known in his field. It really matters more what you do at whatever school you choose. If you excel in your classes, commit to research (especially if you can publish!), you will be fine.
Another option is to contact someone at both schools, see if you can spend a day or two in the chemistry department so you can get a feel for how it is for the students. There is no resource more valuable than the people going through it. I think most schools would accommodate a prospective student, just make sure you get some time alone with the students. They could also probably put in contact with some alumni and you can see where they ended up and how they think their choice of school impacted them.
Unfortunately, the cost of school does have to come into the equation. If you choose to go to grad school, you’ll be looking at a lot of years with very low pay (Chemistry grad school does provide a stipend since you will be researching and/or teaching, but it’s usually not much more than a living wage and chances are you’ll have to take out more loans to buy books, etc). More years at a little higher pay if you post-doc, so you have to think about the fact that you’ll have to start paying back your loans right after grad school.
So bottom line, don’t just take into account the next four years. Think about where you want to be in ten, or twenty years. Reach out to people at the schools you’re interested in, they’ll be happy to help. And if they’re not, you don’t want to go there anyway.
Good luck!
To the boob staring question I agree some glances aren’t a big deal. But any prolonged staring, or especially any catcalling or something like that on the street is really shitty. Until recently I didn’t have a car so I had to walk to classes and the grocery store and got catcalls from men about every week. It really sucks and just makes you feel like shit, I don’t understand what guys who do it can possibly think will come of it other than making us feel unsafe.
For the future college applicant- have self confidence! If you genuinely believe a school is right for you, your passion will show through to them in the application process. For chemistry you will almost definitely have to go to graduate school so go to the inexpensive school and work your butt off to be at the top of your class in order to go to a more prestigious graduate school and hopefully on a grant. Your undergrad is only a vehicle to grad school which will actually affect your career. Good luck!
I completely agree with Jen. If this person already knows that they will go on to grad school, your undergrad matters close to nothing and they should go to the state school for undergrad. Coming from someone who had almost a full law scholarship and still accumulated 120k in law school debt, you do not want to be riddled with undergrad debt on top of grad school debt. Save your money and invest it where it counts - splurge on a one on one tutor to get your LSAT, MCAT, GMAT scores as high as possible. That said, I mostly agree with Elizabeth that if you are not going on to grad school and this undergrad degree would guarantee employment before graduation and a path to a lucrative salary, I would go that route (the noted exception being if the state school puts you geographically in a location where you can score more internship opportunities and at amazing places). Elizabeth and Andy - I’ve heard both of you mention the option of school loans before and I feel like I should give an overall FYI. Since the recession, government school loans have changed dramatically. They are extremely burdensome. I fell for the “sage” advice to trust the flexibility and low rate once offered by our government, and all listeners should do more research before leaping. My government loans are at 8.5%. I wake up with fresh tears in the morning. Private loans were at 3% when I was in school, but I was naive to taking on debt and didn’t know my options. The game has changed so really arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible before taking on the debt.
This is more feedback for the high school senior.
As stated above, the place where you earn your undergraduate degree will not prevent you from excelling in the future. It’s just important that you do well in your classes, gain research experience, and make connections with professors/PIs. (I cannot stress research experience enough, it’s a major component of getting experience and getting into grad school! Try to get into a lab sooner than later! Also maybe look into an REU)
Also, look into applying for different scholarships. If you are a woman or a minority going into a hard science (like chemistry) there is a possibility that you could get a scholarship to cover the majority of the cost of your dream school. Additionally, don’t feel like you’re lesser for going to a state school. I went to a state school and earned a degree in biology, and now I am gainfully employed with 0 school debt! I also had an interview at an ivy league for grad school based mostly on my research experience, GPA, and research interests. It’s not worth going into major debt when you can earn equal education and experience at a cheaper school.
Everything I need to know about life I learned from Seinfeld:
“Looking at cleavage is like looking at the sun, you don’t stare at it. It’s too risky! You get a sense of it and then you look away.”
Thanks Elizabeth and Andy for the feedback. For everyone else reading this I’m the 20 year old guy whose girl stopped contacting him. It’s been 3 weeks now and when I heard Andy’s suggestion of not doing anything, taking the high road, and be the mature one and not say anything I was really leaning towards doing that because I’ve always had played that nice guy card. Then I thought about what Elizabeth said because she needs to get called out and be addressed that this is over. So I texted her while I was at work and pretty much said that hey “This is clearly over and this was pretty mature of you, ignoring me is a little childish for a 25 year old. Are you really that mature?”. She then 3 hours later responded “Really”. She later said that she’s going through some stuff, which I’m sure she’s lying about. I asked if she wanted to talk about it and guess what happened again…no response. Called her….no response. I’m totally over this run around and just thought you guys should know the follow up to this. Thanks for letting me know the real her.
In response to the guy who is wondering whether he should let his friend know that he’s interested in dating her when he goes to visit her: I think that as long as he’s clear about the fact that if she just wants to be friends he’s fine with that, he definitely should. My input though is that he should do it as early as possible into the trip: so enough time has passed where they’ve spent some time together but they still have enough time to enjoy each other’s company romantically before he has to leave (if she’s interested too). My husband and I were long distance for 2 years, starting about 1 month after we met and started dating, and ending about two months before we got married. Because we had a chance to be in person for the first few weeks, we had the opportunity to start forming a solid connection, as we were able to spend long periods of time together, as well as hold hands, cuddle, and kiss. This allowed us to really see that we had a connection and believe both we would be able to sustain it while long distance AND that it would be worth it for when we were able to live in the same city again. I think if we had met only once or twice before we had to become long distance, we would have had a much harder time trying to form our bond, as long sessions on skype just do not compare to time spent together. That’s why I think it’s important for the writer-inner to be honest about his intentions as soon as possible when he comes to visit his friend. Hopefully she’ll be interested too and they’ll be able to spend their visit starting to form a strong relationship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvXs9Qy6mMo
Regina Spektor’s thoughts on it:
Summer in the city means cleavage cleavage cleavage
And I start to miss you, baby, sometimes
I’ve been staying up and drinking in a late night establishment
Telling strangers personal things
Summer in the city, I’m so lonely lonely lonely
So I went to a protest just to rub up against strangers
And I did feel like coming but I also felt like crying
It doesn’t seem so worth it right now
And the castrated ones stand in the corner smoking
They want to feel the bulges in their pants start to rise
At the site of a beautiful woman they feel nothing but
Anger, her skin makes them sick in the night nauseaous, nauseaous, nauseaous
Summer in the city, I’m so lonely lonely lonely
I’ve been hallucinating you, babe, at the backs of other women
And I tap on their shoulder and they turn around smiling
But there’s no recognition in their eyes
Oh summer in the city means cleavage cleavage cleavage
And don’t get me wrong, dear, in general I’m doing quite fine
It’s just when it’s summer in the city, and you’re so long gone from the city
I start to miss you, baby, sometimes
In response to the boob staring: This is something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. I don’t have a big “rack” and while I feel pretty good about my physical appearance I’ve never been that girl who guys go nuts over. But living in New York, I feel stares alllll the time. I dont dress provocatively. I’m not really into low cut tops and butt-showing shorts. I like to keep it relatively modest. But I feel or rather catch people (men) staring at me at the weirdest times. And when it’s coming from a stranger, I feel really uncomfortable. I get squeamish and want to hide. I’ll put my earphones in and look down at the ground. It makes me want to wear a poncho at all times. I’ve even gone so far as to flip the bird to or tell someone to fuck off when strangers try to approach me or holler at me. It’s really maddening. On the other hand, if its a guy I know or am friends with, it’s way less threatening. Mainly because I can call them out. I.e. a coworker who whenever walking behind me liked to comment on “what long legs I have” when clearly he’s just looking at my butt. So I just said “quit staring at my ass”and, we laughed about it, he admitted he was busted and, to my knowledge, it’s never happened again. At the VERY least I have the ability to regain a bit of control in a situation where I personally know the gawker. Elizabeth, I can’t remember if you said anything to Andy’s friend when he was checking you out but if I were in that position I wouldn’t have hesitated to embarrassed him. I think its human nature to want to check each other out, but we’ve all got to draw the line somewhere. It definitely helps if you can do it without getting caught. If you’re not getting caught it also probably means you’re not looking too long… probably…
Yet more advice on the high school student applying to college. I think Elizabeth’s point about “how elite are the elite schools you are talking about?” is a really great one. I graduated from an Ivy League college, and the financial aid there was extremely good. Yes, you would still pay more than a state school, but their financial aid dept will work with you to make it work. So if that’s the level of school you’re looking into, then definitely apply and see what the financial aid office can offer you - you might be surprised.
If the non-state-schools are very good, but not top echelon, then consider the community college option for a year or so. Then you can transfer into a better school option, and reduce the total college cost considerably. Your degree will ultimately be from the better school, and that’s the degree employers will consider. Then you get the best of both worlds - save money and get the degree from the school you’d prefer.
To the college applicant: Please, please be careful before you take on a lot of student debt. I teach at a top tier university. Many of my students who came here because it was their ‘dream school’ are drowning in debt. They are stressed out constantly and panicked about the future. Lots of universities offer student aid packages including loans that sound great, but in reality the students that take them often end up financially crippled. Don’t take this decision lightly.
To Elizabeth (the caller):
(I’m the lady who wrote in about my horrible coworker a few months ago. We were friends but everything went south and now she won’t even talk to me.- this actually works out really well for me though.)
I totally agree with Elizabeth & Andy’s advice. Just keep distancing yourself and inviting her to really really boring events.
The crappy thing is though, if this coworker is immature, it will probably eventually back fire on you like it did to me. This coworkers sounds like she has no self awareness and no concern about how you feel in these situations you’re not psyched about. Just be prepared for the consequences.
Just my two cents from someone who did this.
For the high school senior, I want to say that I went to my “dream” school which was a large, expensive private university. I don’t regret that decision for one minute. I was lucky that my parents foot the bill for 95% of my tuition costs, but my husband who went to the same school grew up very poor and he worked the scholarship and financial aid office to his benefit and now that we’re both working full time his student loan debt is very manageable. You can make it work if you talk to the financial aid people and keep your eye out for any kind of scholarships that help you.
Also, as a scientist (majored in Biology) who went to graduate school as well, pedigree does matter. Your graduate school matters more, but I know when we looked at prospective grads at my grad school there was a lot of emphasis about where they came from and who they had researched with at that institution.
JT, sorry you got the runaround, man. I would have taken Andy’s advice. Obviously that’s easier said than done, but I would say that almost all the time there is nothing to be gained from the one last contact to say something to get a rise out of the person. The only possible way it works is if you really need to get something off of your chest to get closure, and that you truly have no expectations that the person will respond. I have done that before in a long email just saying where my head was and good luck to the person in their life. The message to tell the person I thought you were better than this/more mature than this, etc. I think always comes across as being a last ditch effort to make sure that the person responds and the response is likely to be negative, which is likely counterproductive.
I am a teacher, and I can let you know that as a state school grad, I am very glad I did not go further in debt with a different school. We don’t make enough for that kind of difference in tuition to be worth it. Don’t go to an expensive school unless it will translate into a great deal more money and a definite job after graduation.
To the high school senior,
I would go to the in state college and get the general college credits out of the way, and save some money there. Then when you are ready to take the specialized chemistry classes usually in your junior year I would transfer to the dream school. Hope this helps!
I love looking at mens bulges so much. every guy that pass me in the street, I look at the bulge, trying to make out the outline of the penis.
Hi, I’m that guy who was wondering how I should approach letting my friend know I am interested in dating her. Unfortunately we weren’t able to meet up on my trip down her way. While I was only a few hours away from her, she had to cancel a bunch of plans that included seeing me. I should still see her next month when she is up my way.
I’m just going to see how things go, and if I think she might be receptive to the idea, tell her I have feelings for her. If she isn’t, I’ll just let it go and move on.