Andy says,”how did you move from the friend zone to the bone zone.”to Elizabeth ROFL!! U guys kill me!!

One main thing I would want to say is that there is a difference between what we want to be true and what is actually true. The existence of an afterlife is not more or less likely based on how much we want there to be an afterlife . I Feel it is best we be skeptical of things until there is sufficient evidence to accept a claim. When you said that after we die we become like gods who know all the answers , I struggle to understand how you know that.

You call a baby or a flower a “miracle”. What makes it a miracle ? the rarity of its existence ? There are 7 billion people on the Earth. I think when we use the Word “soul” or “magic” we’re referring to the connection we feel or the awe and wonder of nature. I think its important to differentiate. Just because you have intense love or emotion towards something doesn’t make it supernatural. Nature can be quite beautiful all by itself.

Humans are wired to look for patterns. When we hear a song that reminds us of a dead person. I think its just our brains connecting two things together. Coincidences happen everyday , with 7 billion people on the Earth someone somewhere is experienceing a coincidence. My mom’s birthday is 11/11 , so she notices when its 11:11 on a clock or when I notice when its 9:11 on a clock, Is it a dead person reminding me of 9/11 or just a something that sticks out after a major event in ours lives ?

Hey guys, I thought I’d put in my two cents on the whole religion discussion. I’m an atheist, but I went to a Catholic middle school, Jesuit high school, and Lutheran university, so I have some knowledge of the basic Christian doctrine. Elizabeth, you made it seem like if you were to become an atheist or even an agnostic, the whole world would lose value/meaning. If this was the idea you had, I have to disagree with you. While yes, I do believe after we die, everything is over, that doesn’t mean I don’t think the universe and everything in it is beautiful. I’m gonna try to be as non-dickish as possible here, so please forgive me if I sound like a jerk. I believe that in the grand scheme of things, we as an entire planet are so incredibly insignificant, that the word “insignificant” can’t even properly convey how little we really matter. However, that doesn’t just make everything meaningless. We make ourselves significant to other people. We make art, we create new life, we make other people’s lives better. Does that matter at all when we consider life outside of this planet? No, but that’s not what we should strive for. I truly think it’s absolutely mind blowing and beautiful how much of an impact we can make on other peoples lives, given how tiny our influence may be.
I guess my semi-thesis is this: we create and assign meaning to ourselves and other people. It may seem pretty narcissistic, but it’s (usually) done out of selflessness.
I should point out that I’m a bit younger than you (will be 21 this fall) so you should probably take all of this with a grain of salt. Hahah.

And one side note… Maybe ease up on the Scientology bashing. I understand you can get passionate about it, but I don’t think it’s very nice to talk down to it so much. Like you said, it can all be bullshit and we have no idea. I really hope that doesn’t come off as overly critical. It’s your show after all, do what you want.

Hey guys! Just have to say i love your podcast’s..they never fail to make me laugh! Wanted to add to all the great comments already posted to help you see your not alone ( or somehow wrong) in questing the whole big subject of faith and doubt and the “why are we here?”. I have been on a similar “spiritual” journey these last few years that was triggered by getting pregnant (which sadly ended in miscarriage). My husband and i started to look at everything in our lives..including our religion and if it was what we really believed and if we wanted to raise our kids in this way. Long story short: we did some research and “soul” searching and quickly realized we have been in an organized christian religion for our whole lives ( i was raised in it by very loving well meaning parents) and really did not believe or agree with ANY of the teaching. I felt like my whole world was crumbling down and felt so lost and confused. This was complicated because my whole family and our all our friends were in this religion and deciding to leave meant we would be shunned from everyone!! We decided to leave anyway despite the consequences because we just could not continue with something we disagreed with so strongly..So here we are 3 years later.it has been a bumpy road..since not only did i loose my faith in everything i have ever know and believed in but i lost the support of my family and friends as well. BUT i have finally come to a place of peace and acceptance that it is OK to believe whatever it is in life that brings you comfort. I have made new friends and come to a good place with my family (sorta..as long as we don’t discuss religion) This i know for sure tho: No one on earth, not religion or science has the answers to the big questions. We just have to dig deep inside and find out what we believe to be truth based on love, not fear, and be happy with all the wonderful things that we do have on our life journey( such as amazing babies and beautiful flowers). I am grateful for this hard learned lesson because it has helped me enjoy the “now” and not stress or worry about the “later”…being present in life. Hope my story helps you somehow! Namaste

Regarding the woman who wrote in about not getting attention from men: I totally understand this, as that was very much me too. In my case, it was because I was 100 pounds overweight all through high school and early college (I’m not anymore due to a lot of effort these last few years) which put me into a friendzone that I couldn’t get out of. Like Elizabeth, I was the one asking people out when I liked them, but unfortunately everyone I asked out turned me down. For me, this only changed when I lost weight, but that also coincided with me gaining a lot of confidence and also generally taking care of myself better, which of course would increase how attractive I am to others. I just wanted to say that I completely understand how difficult it is to want a significant other (I was so inexperienced that I had never even held hands with anyone until my first year in college) and know that it’s out of reach. I would recommend putting yourself out there as much as possible-meeting guys as much as you can (through Meetups, online dating, hanging out with groups) and asking them out when you like them. If they say no, don’t be discouraged. I asked out five guys who all said no and I don’t regret it at all. In fact, I’m proud of myself for persevering and taking initiative. There are so many people in high school and even college who want to date but can’t find people who are interested, but it gets better when you get older. Stay strong!

Regarding Elizabeth’s spirituality crisis: This was an interesting discussion and a little heartbreaking to hear how sad you were at the idea that there way not be an afterlife or that this world is all there is. I hope this doesn’t sound too prescriptive, but I think it might be a good idea for you to try to come to terms with both possibilities-the way you’ve always seen the world and this new way that you’re thinking about recently. Personally, I fall into the camp of believing only in the material world and that when we die, we have the same fate as the flowers you talked about. It doesn’t bother me, but that may be because that’s what I grew up believing so I’m very used to it. Of course, the fact that people die is devastating to me (knowing that my parents and husband will one day die scares me so much even though both are years away), but I’m actually comforted by the fact that I feel I have a pretty good sense of what happens to people when they die. If I believed in an afterlife and a spiritual dimension but had no idea what that was actually like, I would be freaked out I think (are my loved ones happy or in pain in the afterlife? can they see me, including my private moments and thoughts? are they trying to communicate with me? These are all thoughts that might plague me). I’m not saying that I think you should stop believing in the worldview you grew up with. But you’re starting to question that worldview, which means that you might one day settle on a much more secular viewpoint. Because of that possibility, I think it’s worthwhile for you to start working on becoming ok with it now, to avoid how devastating it would otherwise be if you lost your faith. If you get to a point where you are comfortable with either possibility (a spiritual realm exists, or it doesn’t), then you’re in a much less vulnerable position and will be fine regardless of whether you have your faith or you don’t. I hope this made sense and that it’s not too pushy; it’s just what your discussion made me think of.

You also said that you can’t imagine how parents can believe only in the material world in light of how incredible it is that they made a child. I’m not a parent but I know that my mom and dad both are atheists and they are probably in the top 1% of excitement about the amazingness of children and how much they love their children (even now that my sister and I are both adults, every time they see us they hug us like they never want to let go). I’ve seen more recently how my parents love and admire my young nephews, especially with how much they are learning and developing. My mom has marveled many times about how incredible it is that my youngest nephew couldn’t even lift his head 1.5 years ago, and now he can run and can name parts of the alphabet. All of this amazement my parents experience is through the lens of their scientific perspective on the world. From this perspective, pregnancy and human development are amazing because they are the byproduct of billions of years of natural selection, in which whatever encouraged the propagation and improvement of life was selected. The question of why women’s bodies don’t always reject fetuses isn’t totally unanswered by scientists: there’s evidence that in the uterine lining, there are gene signals that prevent cells of the immune system from attacking the fetus. There may be other biological mechanisms at work too, but scientists will surely figure them out one day, so at least to me it doesn’t make sense to fill in what we don’t know with spiritual beliefs (for anyone interested in understanding more about that, google ‘god of the gaps’). I recently started a career as a biologist (specifically, in genetics) and having a good understanding of the way cells function has really made me appreciate life more. They certainly aren’t simple systems, with huge numbers of genes involved, complicated regulation by numerous proteins, lots of redundant proteins and nonfunctional sequences, and it’s all so complex that even the most complicated diagrams are simplifications. If someone were going to sit down and design a biological system, they wouldn’t design it the way our cells work: way too complicated and lots of ways that things can go wrong. But the interaction of all of those genes and proteins does make sense in a purely material world, and to me, it’s awe-inspiring that everything we are comes down to what’s encoded in genes (note that this includes the ‘nurture’ side of things too, since everyone that interacts with us is also the byproduct of their genes). The movement of electrical impulses and small molecules are what explains how babies learn, how we see, why people experience joy and depression, how we walk, and everything else biological. It’s simply incredible.

I’m having these same feelings. I also have a 3 month-old and a five year-old. And the five year-old asks me tough questions about death and heaven and I can only respond with “I hope so,” which isn’t exactly reassuring to him.

I am plagued with anxiety of losing my children or them losing me. And I wish I had a faith that would provide comfort.

I’m so excited about the headphones - thank you!

I look forward to listening to more Totally Married episodes with them.

I think a few people have left comments that explain this better than I will be able to in a few sentences, but I’ll be brief.

I do not believe in a god or higher being or an afterlife. I identify as a secular humanist, but generally am not a part of any organization that discusses religion or spirituality. I have a 17 month old.

The part that resonated with me was how you question how a person can live without that level of reassurance that our souls will live on past this earth. For me, that is the point of having a finite time here. I enjoy every minute so much more. For me, the point of our life is to make our mark, on others, on our community, etc. So that our “soul” lives on in others memories of us. I can feel genuine happiness knowing that my son has gotten to see his parents make the most of our time together here. And I can see how his presence has enriched the lives of others around us, my parents, my in-laws, our extended families, even his daycare provider, their lives have been impacted already during the just beginning part of his life. By definition (a la Wikipedia) Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively. How awesome is that? It makes me excited, not frightened.

Hey Elizabeth and Andy -

I’ll try to keep this short - I have an undergrad degree in theology so I can get long winded about this topic!!

I know that all these different religions being based on the writings of all these different people may seem like an argument against faith but if you think about it another way it’s an argument for it. A lot of religions were formed at roughly the same time but at completely different parts of the world. What’s amazing is that even though they were formed by different people, some of the themes are the same. This doesn’t tell us what religion is right but here’s what I think it does tell us.

There probably is a higher power or something more in this world. People all over the world feel it and religion is our attempt to explain it. The fact that many religions pick up on the same themes might just point to the fact that we’re getting some of it right.

Don’t give up on your belief and a soul because a flower is also spectacular. It is spectacular but if there is a creator that gave us minds to behold just how spectacular that flower is and gave us minds to reason through such difficult topics and gave us some kind of awareness of something more and some kind of awareness of our own souls doesn’t that tell us that the “something more” out there is pretty spectacular itself?

Wanted to touch on two things:
First, I think you gave great advice about the rescue dog. I know so many people who have had good experiences, including myself! My childhood dog and my current dog were both adopted. My current dog did come from a rescue organization that told us about her personality prior to adoption, and she has been so great. She’s a submissive type, so no aggression, but over the two years we’ve had her she’s really gotten a lot more confident. My office allows dogs and at first she would be by my side the whole day, crying if I went into the restroom. Now, she gets in the door and goes to greet everyone on her own, waiting patiently for pets. I think some dogs, depending on their situation, may take some time to overcome skittishness or timidity. I know mine has learned to trust a lot more and is the best thing we did for our little family! Sidenote, it’s also important to go over rules for interacting with Doggy with your kids. Cesar Milan has some good ones on his website.

And next:
I’ve been struggling with my feeling that there’s nothing after we die, too. I was raised as a christian, but life and watching the abuses of different religious figures and organizations really turned me off to the whole thing. So I began to question. Now I identify as a (reluctant?) atheist. I don’t want to believe there is nothing, in fact it scares me a ton, but I don’t see how I can believe in anything else when there is no evidence of it. I’ve come to this belief slowly, and I think it’s beyond the point where I can lie to myself just to make myself feel better about it. I still believe in being a good person (aka “do unto others”), but it makes this life seem much more finite and precious than believing it somehow goes on after we take that last breath. It’s sad, for sure… My fiancee says to think about it like it’s before I was born. I was “fine,” before I was born, so I’ll be “fine” after I die. It’s not super comforting but it does make me think. Anyway, that’s my perspective.

Love the podcast. <3

The question Elizabeth asked, “is there something other than religion that addresses the soul and afterlife?” is a good one.
We all have an existence, and we all have a body that shall die; so it is only rational to ask the question she asked.
Do do otherwise would be foolish.

I will try to be brief in addressing it, however it is upon each of us ourselves to verify these things for ourselves through understanding and direct experience.

Yes, there is.
The study of the soul and afterlife, “eschatology”, is the study of what we call today “Platonic Philosophy”.

There is really no “Platonic Philosophy”, because that makes it sound like that is one philosophy among many.
It is simply what one will find if one uses their mind to understand the mind.
It is the study of the highest levels of mind that humans can access.

Not just the study, and intellectual understanding, but this study prepares the individual’s mind or soul to actually verify this understanding for themselves by separating from the physical body and physical universe.

To separate the soul (or “spirit) from the physical universe is entering the Spiritual Dimension of reality.
To understand this Spiritual Realm, and experience it for yourself, is the proper definition of “spirituality”.

Even though every hippie and his bandanna wearing dog has their own definition for what “spirituality” means to them…

The earliest records of thinkers that we have show that this is what they did with their time.
They did not think education to be “believing what the professor professors, remembering it, and regurgitating it on a test at the end of the semester” like we to today.
They understood it to be preparing the soul to enter the spiritual dimension in which one can “remember” everything.
This remembering of everything that has and will happen is called Wisdom.

Socrates, sometimes referred to as the “father of western thought” said philosophy was nothing other than the art and practice of death and dying.
In other words… the most important think one can do is die… which is the same as the spiritual experience.
That is, die many times, before they bury you.
Before the final death of the physical body you are currently in.

What we know of the pre-Socratic thinkers is that they thought the same thing.

And Plato, the student of Socrates began the first universities in the West, based on this “remembering” and spiritual tradition of education, which created a wonderful flourishing in humanity.
Called The Academy.

So, for Elizabeth, i recommend the book “The Essential Plotinus”.
Which is a compilation of writings by one of the heads of the Academy.
It is a good way to get into understanding the Soul, the afterlife, the Divine, and the meaning of life, because he is speaking from his own experiences.
He is sort of doing it best to outline things that he knows himself from experiencing them directly.
Its very inspiring and poetic.

The end to this flourishing of humans and culture happened in 529AD when Emperor Justinian shut down the Academy, killed the philosophers, banned this real education, and put together the “official” religion called “christianity” and made himself ruler of it.

This began a period of human history called “the dark ages” where pretty much everything went to shit.

Instead of remembering, understanding, and direct spiritual experiences of Wisdom… we got belief… and authority figures ruling the belief.
We got religion.

You might notice that we have this religion model of education at schools today.
There is some “authority” that stands in front of the congregation or classroom… and professes the faith.
We call these professors of the faith “professors”.

They tell us the beliefs… we repeat it for the test… and if we challenge the authority or the system they will raise hell.

This happens because we cannot be taught things that challenge the authority, power, wealth, and control of the religions.

In other words, we cannot learn to understand the soul, afterlife, divine, and meaning of life.
Because if we UNDERSTAND something there is no need for BELIEF or FAITH.

Likewise we cannot know it for ourselves through Spiritual Wisdom for the same reason.

While religious beliefs or “faith” are easy to identify, the beliefs that we are taught to maintain our ignorance at schools are harder to see.

Once such false belief is “its all relative”.

When a child gets up and challenges the teacher, the teacher turns to him and says “Billy, aren’t we all entitled to our own opinion? Now shut up and sit down!”.

The beliefs that we are all entitled to our own opinion, and everything is relative to one’s own perspective, and there is no real truth- just interpretations, and each opinion is just as valid, and “who are you to say something is wrong?!”; are called;
“It’s all Relative”.

These are all bullshit… obviously opinions are wrong… i cant just say its “my truth” that im a dentist without any training and start pulling people’s teeth out because “who are you to say my opinions are wrong!?”
They are bullshit but we are taught them.

Because with them we would challenge our teachers… and we need to be taught to blindly obey authorities (teachers, priests, politicians, CEOs, etc)

Without them we would see that all these religions that cause so many god damn problems and wars and confusion and suffering… are all complete horse shit. And religion would disappear overnight. Because “faith” or “believing things unprovable or disproven by evidence” is the definition of an “Absurd Belief” in the field of psychology and plain common sense.

And if we are indoctrinated by our educational institutions to belief that “There is no truth” we cannot search for The Truth, or the nature of Ultimate Reality, which is the soul’s quest to know itself.
In other words we have already underminded “Platonic Philosophy” from the get go.

This is why all the conversation online is Religion Vs Atheism.
Both of which are irrational and provably false and harmful.
That whole “debate” IGNORES over a thousand years of careful study by the brightest minds on the nature of the Soul and the Spiritual realm.

Study you dont have to BELIEVE, but you must VERIFY for yourself through direct experience of this realm.
And this experience is the ONLY way of knowing something for sure. Its the nature of the Knowledge or Wisdom experience.

I hope this helps Elizabeth.
There is much much more i have not touched on, but this is a good introduction to you and your fine question.

You can also check out “Varieties of Mystical Experiences” by O’Brien for more accounts of people’s spiritual experiences.
And i hope you enjoy Plotinus.

And remember Elizabeth… HOLD YOUR QUESTION.

You have just given birth to a baby, but few people give birth to a question like the one you have birthed.
And even fewer people still, HOLD ONTO that question.
To hold onto that question no matter what else might arise to distract you, it so be on a Quest.

On, and being on this Quest is likely to upset people as it will challenge the false beliefs they hold dear… and you will discover a higher way of being that will also threaten the way of being from their household or group… which may upset them.
Best of luck!