Time Travel To The Max!
10.27.14 | Share: Share on Twitter Share on Facebook
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Totally Married Podcast
Episode 173
Elizabeth and Andy check in after/before their recent (future) trip to Chicago and discuss… ya know… time travel! Then they give their unqualified advice to listener questions about how to broach a discussion about money and inheritance with a financially sensitive partner, whether or not to go through with a Tinder sex-romp with a virgin who is much younger, how to distance yourself from an emotionally draining friendship, and lastly a question about handling a roommate situation when their boyfriend and his friends are a little too comfy. Enjoy!
86 Comments!
Great ep!! I totally understand Elizabeth’s inner turmoil about the women/men sexual violence issues, but I have to say that just like the first time it was brought up on Totally Mommy, my first instinct is that it seems so unfair to pin all males as villains. I was raised by a single father, my mother was a real trash bag, on all fronts. My step-father divorced my mom and then stayed in my life while she dropped out of it. I’m married to a male elementary school teacher who has worked with young children since he was 20 years old. I ain’t got no time for BS about how dangerous all men are. Yes, men commit terrible crimes against women, and against other men. But so do women. And, so do Fathers against their own children! So the argument that only allowing your husband/father of your children to be around your kids in no way guarantees their safety. Also, I don’t want to raise my children, boys or girls, in a world where they can’t be trusted enough to know an unsafe situation, regardless of the gender/family relationship of the person taking care of them. Elizabeth makes a good point that the conversation needs to change, and we need to empower our children to be able to recognize dangerous situations, and foster open communication so they always feel comfortable telling someone when they feel unsafe. Even if the person making them feel that way is a trusted family member or friend.
Sorry for the rant, but I look at my wonderful father and step-father, my FIL and my sweet husband and I can’t keep my mouth shut. And for the record, I am a staunch feminist (both my fathers will attest to this fact) who believes the current patriarchal society is complete garbage, but I think there’s a better way to frame the conversation!
Very interested to see what other Laime-weds think?
Hi C-Dubs! Totally hear you. I too love many of the men in my life and know that all me aren’t villains! Of course. But until I can actually have a conversation with my daughter and until the statistics change, it is the choice that feels right for me in terms of both protecting her AND setting her up to have fulfilling, trusting and loving relationships in her future. I totally understand if this is not the choice other people make. I guess I’m taken aback by the outrage and threats that I’m actually harming my daughter in making this boundary for her. It is illogical to me.
Is there something to be said for riding your bike around unencumbered by a helmet and not living life in fear? Yes. of course. But if you look at the statistics, is it crazy to only allow your child to ride a bike while wearing a helmet? Does doing so make them fear bike riding?
I know this is a stretch, but the very strong reactions to this choice feel just as confusing to me.
ps. I had many trusting/loving close relationships with men whom I cannot think of a time I was left alone with. I’m not sure why the alone time with a child is a requirement to have a bond.
Hi Elizabeth -
Other than myself or my husband, my son is never cared for by just one person alone. This is what is most comfortable for us right now and we’ll continue to reassess as he grows up. My trust issues are not exclusively related to the fear of sex abuse, but also concerns over accidents and general safety. I write this to clarify that I largely share your feelings and employ practices to ensure a great deal of safety.
Regardless, it sounds like many of your concerns are based on statistics and I thought it is important for you to be aware of one more: over the past 20 years sexual crimes against children has drastically fallen and child reporting has increased. Specifically, “Overall cases of child sexual abuse fell more than 60 percent from 1992 to 2010” from the New York Times reporting on data compiled from the FBI and the National Database on Child Abuse and Neglect, read more if interested here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/us/rate-of-child-sexual-abuse-on-the-decline.html?_r=0
I think you are getting so much backlash here because our generation of men do see themselves as feminists and are very protective over children and their safety. Far more than previous generations of men. You’ve got a great message but if you are really looking to ignite a movement be aware that child abuse crimes have decreased and the men in our generation and the cultural change they’ve undergone may have something to do with it. You might be more persuasive by recognizing the successes that have been made.
Perhaps consider why this would upset some people. It’s not because they want to bury their head in the sand but they are also passionate about protecting children and eliminating sexism from our society and your statements don’t necessarily give them the credit they deserve.
Just a few thoughts, I hope they don’t upset you. All the best.
thank you for speaking up, Elizabeth,
Yes, thank you. I don’t know a woman who hasn’t experienced, if not sexual violence, at least a feeling of not being in control of a situation with a man. Whether that’s “I felt like I owed him,” “It was just easier to have sex than say no,” or, “I didn’t feel comfortable in my own home,” it’s NOT ACCEPTABLE, but it is the way our society runs.
Don’t feel bad for speaking up. We live in a world where young girls are married off to old men. We live in a country where young girls are told that they can grow up to be sexy nurses, not doctors. We live on streets where we can’t wear skirts on a hot day without strangers on the street shouting at us about our bodies. There are Very Few Safe Spaces For Women, and I want this podcast to continue to be one of them. You should feel empowered to talk about these feelings in your own home, on your own show! Commenters are also allowed to disagree, but speak your truth, Elizabeth. It’s my truth, too.
Hello, Elizabeth!
I am a big fan of both you and Andy (and Teddy!), but feel the need to write in response to your comments about boys and men during the answering of the roommate question. As the mother of both a son and two daughters, I was quite taken aback by some of your comments.
While I do recognize the alarming statistics about sexual assault against women, I also believe that more men don’t rape than rape. I, and many other parents, absolutely teach (or plan to teach, depending on age) their sons about consent. It is most important to teach children, boys and girls, to trust their instincts and to never ever be afraid to speak up against anyone or anything that has tried to harm them, or anyone else, in any way.
I understand the instinct to want to fiercely protect your daughter from anything potentially harmful in the world. I share this feeling when it comes to my own daughters. I also have an instinct to do the same for my little boy. After all, having sons comes with its own set of worries. The idea of anyone treating him as less-than because he, simply by being a man, could be a potential rapist is so hurtful to me.
Feminism is just as much about ensuring my son can grow up to be a good babysitter as it is about anything else. While I do feel like it is more of an uphill battle for my daughters, that doesn’t mean that I don’t have to stand up and fight for my son. We live in a society that glorifies sex and violence and those two concepts are harmful to both men and women. Change starts with showing young people that they are not any better or worse than anyone else. It starts with things like teaching our boys that they don’t have to beat each other up on the playground in order to be “men” and it’s okay to wear nail polish if they like the way it looks, and teaching our girls that their worth is not measured by their physical beauty or sex appeal, and that happiness, humor and intelligence are far more important than bald vaginas. Just as treating young girls like decorations is harmful, treating young men as though they’re doomed to be criminals is detrimental to the move forward.
I am sorry to ramble on for so long. I could go on forever on this subject. I know that you are a very open minded person and I know that you respect men. It felt to me as though your perspective was slightly skewed today and I wanted to share my opinions. You may have a baby boy some day and while you may understand how someone could make assumptions about him based on gender, it will break your heart.
Very well put, PT! This reminds me of Emma Watson’s He For She speech she made a while back where she emphasized that feminism is not just a girls’ discussion, but also a boys’ discussion. While I think feminism does focus more on the female side of things, I think the male side of things are just as important.
“We don’t often talk about men being imprisoned by gender stereotypes but I can see that that they are and that when they are free, things will change for women as a natural consequence. If men don’t have to be aggressive in order to be accepted women won’t feel compelled to be submissive. If men don’t have to control, women won’t have to be controlled.”
http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2014/9/emma-watson-gender-equality-is-your-issue-too#sthash.hxNLWu2E.dpuf
So wonderful, Maria.
I want to add to my original comment by saying that, to her credit, Elizabeth definitely recognized the complexities of these issues by the end of her talk with Andy. It was nice to hear the two of them talk it out and I’m glad that Andy stuck to his guns a little and helped Elizabeth see things from the male perspective. Gotta love them Rosens!
I definitely agree, PT. While I may disagree with Elizabeth on some things, she definitely always gives consideration to the feedback she gets. Everyone is totally allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, and I can definitely see Elizabeth’s evolution on a variety of different topics over the course of this podcast. She may not always do a 180 in her viewpoint, but she often expresses how a listener’s feedback gave her something to think about and she’ll think twice next time before jumping to a conclusion.
Everyone is entitled to their own journey when it comes to their views and opinions. I respect that Elizabeth speaks openly and honestly about how she feels about issues. It’s her and Andy’s podcast, and they both should feel free to express their viewpoints on it, even if everyone fiercely disagrees. I also love that people respond with feedback whether it be in agreement or disagreement. Both Elizabeth’s opinions and listeners’ responses have often given me a lot to think about on my own.
Totally random but the Huffington Post did an article about the best houseplants for purifying the air and such
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/best-houseplants-destress_n_2964013.html
Love this! Thanks Dominic 🙂
Love that Andy wants to time travel to Downton Abbey: Series one begins at an English country estate called Downton Abbey in April of 1912, with the sinking of the Titanic.
Some support for Elizabeth here - I think what Andy is worried about is Elizabeth letting fear rule her, which I agree is always a bad approach, to be avoided when facing difficult information or situations. But I also think she is addressing a very real problem, and I think the solution she discussed of parents needing to educate both male and female children about respecting themselves and others sexually, and about standing up in defense of others in the situation she described of rape happening and others being around who are uncomfortable with it but not interfering- these are actually positive and responsible suggestions, not fear based.
Personally, the men in my friend group and my family are people i love and respect and would never fear, and i have every confidence that they are raising their male children to be this kind of man as well. I’m positive that is 100% true of Andy also, so it is natural that he wants to jump to the defense of men as a whole. It’s just that even with all that being said, that in no way means that the prevalance of rape and sexual violence isn’t a huge problem in society that needs attention and solutions.
Also, as a side note, I do wonder if E’s teacher (who I totally understand was a positive force in her life and probably a wonderful person) sent similar letters about the males in class who had opinions that were “too passionate”. People call women “opinionated” WAY more than men. Yet another double standard. And I don’t think this way because I am a “raging feminist”, just a human being noticing stuff happening around me.
Thanks A! And that’s interesting about the teacher’s letter and being opinionated. I’d never thought of that… I’m willing to bet you are right.
…My thought too when I heard that.
Elizabeth, I think you’re being too hard on yourself over how brightly your feminism is currently shining and how it is playing itself out in your opinions.
You say you’ve always been very absolutist in your perspectives. Yet, much of Totally Married is you being open and receptive to different opinions and acknowledging that you’re learning new things and your perspectives are changing.
Keep being open and revisiting your opinions and this will continue to be a great advice show.
On the specific topic, I’m a man and I have no problem with women being initially wary. It sucks, but that is the reality of a society where 1) sexual assaults are shockingly frequent and 2) women tend not to be believed. Boys are raised with this subtle, but incessant, drumbeat that false accusations of rape are rife, so when this topic comes up, there is this simmering doubt that we do not hold toward other crimes.
THank you so much DT! You have such great insight. Thank you.
I just want to say that I support and agree with your point regarding the safety of the roommate in the listener question, and I think this is a conversation that needs to happen in public way more often than it actually does. The sad truth is that we DO live in a world where women need to be hyper-vigilant about their own safety, because there are a LOT of men who want to hurt us. And even more men that don’t REALIZE their actions are hurting us. Just look at this study where men admit to rape as long as it’s not called “rape”: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/
I think if you’re a woman and you’re not thinking about this kind of thing seriously then you’re being sort of naive about the world we live in. I would love to live in a world where women don’t have to worry about being sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, beaten, abused, or murdered by men, but we simply don’t.
Take a look at these figures:
More than 1 in 10 women worldwide are sexually assaulted. That’s around 120 million women! And I’m guessing the actual percentage is higher, because so many women never report this type of crime.
38% of murdered women worldwide are killed by an intimate partner.
http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/
Also, I don’t think ALL men are violent or scary, and I don’t think you were saying that at all. BUT as a woman you really have to be a little suspicious of men to try and maintain your own safety. I’m sure some people will disagree with me, but I’m with you on this, Elizabeth, and I think people really need to be more vocal about it. (I’ve always been passionate about this, but now that I’m the mama of a 2 year old little girl it is something that bothers me so much more!)
Thank you Rachel - thank you especially for pointing out that I wasn’t saying that ALL men are violent or scary. I feel that too often when women discuss wanting to protect themselves (or in this case, my children too) that what we are saying is that ALL men are scary monsters not to be trusted. Not the case. But does that mean that then we have to trust all men implicitly? That makes no sense based on the facts. It’s not fair that we can’t just trust all men all the time. But women and children aren’t the ones to blame, it’s the men who hurt women/children who are giving a bad name to the rest of them. Hoping that this dialogue is the beginning of some change.
Great post, Rachel. I 100% agree with you.
Hi Elizabeth,
I cannot sympathize more with how you were feeling at the end of the podcast, and I think it’s very common among feminists to feel like this. I think you having this dilemma is a sign that you have changed since you were younger and you don’t see things as black-and-white anymore. I want people to listen, to understand, to change, but they’re turned off when I seem too passionate and I become “that person.” There are feminists who believe this is another way to marginalize women by writing them off as “crazy” and “hysterical,” and I think that’s partially true.
It’s frustrating to be expected to remain super calm and logical in order to be heard when there are so many emotions tied to these issues. We should be angry and outraged, and I shouldn’t always have to gently explain things to people, but I guess that’s where society is right now. I don’t know why this is, but people get very defensive when they begin to learn about social issues. I noticed it myself when I was younger and I learned about feminism, homophobia, and racism. There’s an instinct to justify why things are the way they are and to resist changing one’s worldview, because it’s uncomfortable and requires a lot of reflection.
Of course I, like you, don’t think all men are dangerous, but it’s a much bigger problem than society thinks it is. People like us are necessary, because you’re right-if we choose not to be “that person,” then things won’t change. A few years ago my brother got sick of me picking apart TV shows and social situations and we had an argument about this. I tried to educate him about rape culture, but he told me I was being unfair to men. I don’t know if I unintentionally toned it down (I don’t think I did) or if he actually started listening to me, but in the past year he has really begun to understand. I’ve noticed this with my male friends as well. I think people who are initially uncomfortable with feminism will start noticing patterns that you pointed out to them, and then they’ll begin forming their own opinions. I think it’s important that someone point patterns out, and the more places they hear it, the less likely they are to dismiss you as overzealous.
Thank you so much Casey! This really inspires me. Thank you.
Also! Re: bald vaginas, I’m 22 and none of my female friends are totally bald. Most of us don’t do much at all besides keep things neat (and not even that sometimes), and only once have I heard of a sex partner complaining about it. I can’t imagine being ridiculed by other girls, that’s so horrible! Maybe it’s a regional thing as well as a generational thing? I’ve never felt the pressure to go totally bald, except for by porn and by comments in sitcoms and dumb movies that I just assumed weren’t true.
I’m taking a break
Enjoy!
👍
I have to say, that if a situation raises alarm bells for you, then you (male or female) have every right to respond accordingly. I too would feel unsafe if I had an army of men in my home. In the writer-inner’s situation, I would assume she does not personally know each and every one of the boyfriend’s friends. And in that case, she would have no reason to trust them.
As a mom of a boy, I too plan to raise him to respect females in all ways. That would also mean not imposing a situation on them in which they would feel uncomfortable. I’ve actually been very grateful that I heard Elizabeth speak of the male babysitter issue on an earlier Totally Mommy. It was a gut feeling I had as well, but felt like enforcing such a rule would be unreasonable. After that episode I discussed with my husband, and we both currently agree that we will also be enforcing the rule. It’s not one we market and discuss openly with our other male relatives, but we both have our common understanding that we will not put ourselves in a situation where our son is alone with a male friend/relative. We leave it open in the future to mold the restrictions to each unique situation. But as of now, I feel comfortable knowing that my husband knows to defer to me prior to ever leaving him alone with a male.
To sum up, Elizabeth, I think you should stand with your convictions. As a listener nothing that’s been said has ever “crossed the line” in my mind.
Thank you so much Steph. Thanks for understanding especially that this applies to our sons also, it’s not about me having a daughter, it’s about me being a mom. I think we are where you are in that it’s a rule-ish, open to change but that’s how we feel comfortable moving forward. Thanks for the support! 🙂
Regarding male babysitters… I used to work as the assistant to the President of an NPO that provided counseling to abused children and their families. My boss (male, 60s, PhD in Psych, decades of experience in child welfare) said he’d never condone a male babysitter. This is super sad because there are so many good men out there (and not all woman make good babysitters just because of our gender), but this comment always stuck with me.
Hey Elizabeth- you’re doing great.
I LOVE hearing you talk about gender equality and feminism. It’s a hugely complicated issue, and you aren’t going to get through a conversation like that without encountering different view points or maybe stepping on some toes, but that’s no reason to avoid the conversation.
You’re brave and fantastic, your podcast is super, and anyone who disagrees with that can SUCK IT.
Totally agree with the above post. Elizabeth, the way you talk about gender issues is great and I think we need more open, honest dialogue about it. Andy has a good point when equating it to “strategic veganism” or making certain viewpoints palatable to the masses, but ultimately what needs to be said should be said and anyone who disagrees can indeeeed SUCK IT.
Thanks KC and Kitsu!!
You talk about how you do not want men around your daughter other then Andy. Well my best friend(male) was molested by his dad’s girlfriend. He was so afraid his dad would be mad at him he never told anyone but me. We need to stop thinking only one way. It goes both abd boys and just as damaged by this as girls. Mt friend would never assualt anyone but I know lots of people would throw him in that box if they knew.
More then the sigma of all of this is having an open and honest conversation with children about there bodies. Don’t make them fearful but listen and talk. Kids who have strong relationships with their parents seem less likely to be victims.
Everyone has a right to there pwn opinion and way of doing things but please don’t make it out that it’s just men that are bad. Women can be just a sick in the head and take advantage of small children.
I absolutely agree- I’ve never said that only girls should be protected, I think that all children need to be protected. And I’m so saddened to hear of your friend’s experience.
The startling fact is that 90% of abusers are well known by the victims, and 93% of abusers are men. Men who no one would ever suspect of such a thing. In choosing to not leave my child alone with a man who is not Andy, I am greatly reducing the risk of her being irreversibly hurt. I would make the same choice if it were my son too - the horrifying fact is that 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused before the age of 18 (http://www.parentsformeganslaw.org/public/statistics_childSexualAbuse.html)
Well this discussion on men, groups of men, male relatives raises new fears for my future children but I do agree that boys and girls should be taught to trust their gut and understand and respect consent. It breaks my heart that this is the world that we live in and the world I’ll someday bring kids into.
I am lucky enough to never have had my boundaries violated by someone I know (unfortunately they have been violated to some degree by strangers) and I did have a lot of very positive male influences in my life, uncles and cousins and family friends that cared about me and taught me to drive and tutored me in math. I also had great male teachers, you really didn’t talk about the fact that male teachers are often alone with kids in uneventful circumstances- we only hear about these things when something goes wrong. By treating male and female relatives and friends differently based solely on their gender, we show children, especially girls, that men in general strange and are not to be trusted, and that women are safe and familiar, which we know is not universally true and many women are aware, even sometimes accomplices, when men abuse children.
Without my positive experiences I don’t think I would have had such well-adjusted relationships and friendships with men or ended up with a sensitive, respectful and loving husband. This is where the lines blur and as parents all you can do is trust your gut, teach your kids to trust their gut and speak up but it would be such a shame not to have had these men and relationships in my formative years.
Hi Rachel! Thanks for the thoughtful comment - I agree, it is scary to bring our kids into a world where this is even a discussion! Just want to point out that just because I’m the one raising the discussion doesn’t mean that I’m the one to blame (not that you are, just pointing out!) The blame lies in the perpetrators who make this sort of thought/dialogue necessary.
I respectfully disagree with you that by setting boundaries as a parent my daughter will learn that men are strange and not to be trusted. Quite the opposite. By trusting my own gut on this, I hope to teach her to trust hers when she is able to. But even instinct can fail us. I can choose which men/women to be around, to feel comfortable with, to trust, and even as a grown woman I am sometimes wrong. I’m not going to risk making that mistake with her especially when the statistics are undeniable - she is FAR more likely to be abused by a man who is close to the family or a relative. I’m guessing most of the parents of the 1 in 3 girls and 1 in 6 boys never thought they were leaving their kids with someone who would hurt them. Also, alone time with a person is certainly not a requirement to develop a loving, trusting relationship - especially for a child.
I understand parents who don’t set this boundary, I’m not trying to push this onto people. But just based on facts alone, parents who choose to set this boundary in order to help their children live safe, secure, lives and develop loving and trusting relationships with people shouldn’t be criticized. I think that, as you said, people just don’t want to live in a world where it has come to this. But it has.
Elizabeth and other laimeweds I think this is very important to read.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html
The conversation is turning into a “not all men” conversation and it’s important to understand why that’s not ok. Thank you Elizabeth for speaking up! There is nothing wrong with being “that” person. I love your podcasts but this one is my favorite.
Great link. I wish people would get as fired up about the violence and everyday sexism facing women as they do about “not all men” being violent/sexist. It really shows the place misogyny has in our culture (central and everywhere) when women cannot even speak up for themselves without having to counter it with, “but, OF COURSE, I’m not talking about ALL MEN, guys.” Because if we don’t make men comfortable then we won’t be heard at all.
What kind of choices are we making if we only look at statistics? They can be manipulated and skewed toward the author’s liking. While they have purpose, we need to use good judgement when it comes to other PEOPLE, not men vs. women, not a sheet of paper telling me what is more or less likely. Statistics can be used in this situation, but my thought is to look at our own personal judgements in society and how they can trick us into thinking danger is inevitable. There are untrustworthy women just as much as men, but they show their evil in very different ways. My mom was more abusive to me than my dad ever was, her wounds are much deeper and she never touched me. How much love, guidance and support are we keeping from our kids if they can only be with a man if mom or dad are there? I feel like this would crush my father in law to know he can never be alone with his grandchildren without me or my husband there. He wouldn’t understand even if I gave him all the numbers and new reports. He would only know that I didn’t trust him enough and know he’s safe. I would be disregarding all the years of kindness he’s shown toward me and taking that kind of future away from my child.
Another thought I had was, what kind of men are parents keeping in their lives that they would shelter from their children? Maybe they should not be there in the first place.
No one is saying that women cannot be abusive or evil or “bad,” and I absolutely think people should use their own judgment when it comes to who takes care of their children. But that judgment is shaped by the world we live in, and in this world the majority of people who are violent towards women and children are men. Definitely not all! No one is claiming that. But as a previous poster wrote there is simply no way to tell if you’re standing next to a rapist/child molester or the nicest guy ever. Sorry, but your gut feeling about a guy can be totally wrong. We don’t always know the people around us the way we think we do. I was in a relationship with a man for 9 years, and it wasn’t until we were married (year 4) that I started seeing the real him. That included being violent. My gut about him was wrong, because he was HIDING the real him. When you start saying that women should know then you’re eventually going to get into the arena of victim blaming, and that’s never a good place to be.
To be fair, some of the people who commit awful acts like rape and sexually assault do not outwardly appear to be someone you would “think” would do that kind of thing. For example, in many cases of serial killers, the people who interacted with the serial killer never in a million years would have guessed they could do such a thing. It’s not unheard of for a person who commits such terrible acts to outwardly seem like a kind and charming person.
I know from personal experience that women can and do molest boys, even their own sons. My mother did.
It is remarkably hard for me to hear about the fear of *men* abusing a child. Just as it is hard for me to hear about white male privilege because, although I’m a white male, I ain’t privileged.
I appreciate that more men *do* abuse girls and that many (maybe most) white males *are* privileged…but neither of those facts changes the circumstances of my life one jot.
Elizabeth, your instinct to protect your child is of course nothing but laudable…however, “women good, men bad” is too simplistic and just ain’t gonna cut it.
Even when a woman does not do the actual abusing, they can be accomplices. Look at (and I can’t believe I’m going to cite this in trying to make a serious argument) the recent revelations about “Honey Booboo’s” mom.
If the allegations are true, she maintained an extramarital affair with a man she knew to have molested her *own child*. But by you, that child would be safe with her, just not with me. Or Andy.
You are privileged. That doesn’t mean your life is easy. But privilege is a social phenomenon, not an individual phenomenon.
The most obvious example of your privilege is found in the media. White men remain the ‘norm.’ Every other sort of person is in relation to the norm. This plays out in all sorts of harmful ways.
Everyone’s life is difficult. But, take whatever difficult situation you’re in and imagine going through it as a woman or a person of colour. The difficulty is going to be amplified. You’re having a health emergency and need to hail a cab. You’ve been assaulted and need to talk to the police. You’re having difficulty getting a bank loan. While money can change this dynamic, which wealthy women and people of colour having greater power and authority within certain small spheres, the larger reality remains true beyond those spheres. Wealthy black men are still racially profiled. Wealthy women are still not believed when they are sexually assaulted. Members of these groups are still less likely to see themselves and their experiences represented in the media.
DT, you don’t know me, you don’t know my life, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Don’t do that.
No, I don’t know you, but you said you’re white and you said you’re a man. So I know you have white privilege and male privilege, whether you believe you do or not.
You can move through society as a white person and and a man and those come with privileges whether you think so or not.
This does not mean there are not local examples where power dynamics are reversed. James Foley being a white man did little to protect him from ISIS’s terrorism. Men get abused. White people get murdered. But, these exist among widespread, insidious norms that confer privilege.
I’m sorry for whatever individual turmoil your life might have brought, but that does not eliminate a phenomenon much larger than you.
One more thing about the last letter…IIRC, the writer-inner never says if she has reason to fear THIS specific guy and/or his friends. I think that’s incredibly important.
If any of them have said or done anything to make her uncomfortable (in any way), then I think it’s totally valid for her to say so to her roommate and ask that he or they not come over when she’s home alone.
BUT if this is coming from just being freaked out about men in general…then I’m gonna say it’s her problem. WE CAN’T TREAT PEOPLE LIKE THEY’RE ALL THE SAME.
Fact check time! 😛 (I actually laughed pretty hard because I had looked all this up before Andy even brought up whether someone would fact check the bicycle vs carriage thing.)
Regarding the “Which came first, the bicycle or the horse-drawn carriage?” question. I wondered myself which actually did come first, so I decided to look it up and share what I found. It looks like Andy guessed it right: From my very brief look on wikipedia, horse-drawn carriages of some sort have been around WAY longer than bicycles.
Horse-drawn carriages: “The earliest recorded sort of carriage was the chariot in Mesopotamia as early as 3000 BC. … it was essentially a two-wheeled light basin carrying one or two passengers, drawn by one to two horses.”
Bicycles: “The dandy horse … was the first human means of transport to use only two wheels in tandem … It is regarded as the modern bicycle’s forerunner; Drais introduced it to the public in Mannheim in summer 1817 … Its rider sat astride a wooden frame supported by two in-line wheels and pushed the vehicle along with his/her feet while steering the front wheel.”
In my personal experience, there’s no point in discussing an inheritance when it’s so far down the road. If you’re dealing with money stress, it can really aggravate things to have the “anticipation” of money coming in at some unknowable point in the future.
I worked for a number of years at a child protection center. So, I’d like to speak specifically on what Elizabeth mentioned about children.
My experiences there have stayed with me and greatly impacted my opinions and fears on the matter. I’ve had similar thoughts as Elizabeth on “never leaving my child alone with any male but my husband or grandfathers”. Partially, because I was actually told this by the director (albeit, as an extreme, cautionary statement). However, over the years, I’ve realized that this way of thinking IS rather alarmist, and will mostly teach my son/daughter to be as terrified as I am. I don’t want him to live like this. I don’t want to live terrified of any sleep-over my daughter would want to go to, or assuming all my kids sport coaches could have an alternative motive. The most empowering thing we can do for ourselves and our kids is to teach them to be cautiously aware of their surroundings. To know that they have no business being alone for an extended time with an adult that isn’t mom or dad (or immediate family members), and that they should never let someone other than us/his doctor touch certain areas of his body (or perhaps, even ANY part of his body). Empower them to trust their instinct and tell us at the first sign of feeling uncomfortable. This kind of conversation is hard to have, but I think critical. Just like parents have to tell their children not to go in a car with a stranger, it establishes a healthy understanding that its ok to trust people…but that there are very defined boundaries they should know about, and to let them be empowered by their own instincts.
Going back to my experiences in the child protection center. I feel that a number of the children that were abused didn’t have this type of parenting, or talks at a very early age. That a number of parents DO NOT want to talk about this sort of thing or acknowledge that such a person exists in the world.
We had a hard time even getting donations for the organization, had a hard time talking to members of the community about it, because it made people feel so uncomfortable. They much rather preferred to push it from their minds because it was so hard to fathom. Though we shouldn’t assume the worst from all men (or women), we DEFINITELY can’t let this topic be a taboo that no one wants to talk about. So, I’m so proud of Elizabeth talking about it at all.
And I feel like when it comes to children this isn’t a gender issue at all. Parents need to have talks with little boys on these matters just as much as little girls.
And call me crazy…but my personal feelings are that if every little boy (at a very young age) is taught the personal boundaries of a human body, and the respect/boundaries that he should expect from others…..then when we have that conversation with our young men about consent, it wouldn’t really be a far stretch from what we have already taught them!
This might also create young men who recognize when their male peers are being trashbags and call them out on it. Awareness and discussion creates good things all around.
Love all your shows! Love all these great topics.
Men, read this: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
There hasn’t seemed to be much on the shaving issue from the guy’s perspective. When I was in high school in the early aughts, shaving was a topic of discussion, so I don’t think this is a “kids these days” thing. I think the shift already happened.
It wasn’t just about girls shaving. There was pressure on guys to trim or shave as well. But I think all of this came from teens bizarre ideas of sex and sexuality.
For the guys, it was an issue of cleanliness and hygiene, but also of optical illusion. An older student in the bathroom noticed I wasn’t trimmed or shaved and said:
“Dude, you gotta shave that. You’ll get so much head if you do.” He also told me it would make me look bigger.
Which set my virgin mind racing on a whole thing of how would girls know I was shaved if they weren’t already giving me head!? Did girls have a sixth sense for that!?
Guys expected girls to be shaved down there a) because of the emergence of internet porn and b) it was assumed that if a cleanly girl shaved her arm pits and legs, then shaving down there was clean too.
Guys also would complain about going down on girls with hair, but I think that was from guys who never actually went down on girls because if you’re getting a hairball you’re doing it wrong.
Once I actually had a girlfriend none of this mattered anymore. Teens are weird.
Hey Elizabeth! (and Andy!)
I wanted to chime in too, and say that I like hearing your take on feminist issues, and you’re right, the world does need people to speak up. Staying silent isn’t going to solve anything. I don’t think you’re painting all men as villains, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be careful. The vast majority of sexual assaults against women are perpetrated by men, so naturally we’re going to be more wary of them. In the case of the writer-inner with the roommate, having random dudes in my house at odd hours would certainly make me uncomfortable, whether I was afraid they’d do harm to me or not. Can’t speak to the babysitting thing as much since I’m not a parent, but it seems like leaving your child alone with any adult (guy or gal) requires a large amount of trust.
Anyway, I think feminist issues feel like they’re coming up on the podcast frequently because, once you really begin to notice it, sexism is insidious and everywhere in our culture.
So yeah, keep doing what you do! If people don’t like it, they can deal with it.
THank you Nikki!I appreciate the support 🙂
In my opinon there is something wrong with being “that person” Elizabeth you are making broad generalizations about men and if you raise your daughter this way you will be doing her a disservice. I am raising two young boys and I agree that parents of boys need to teach them to respect people including women but parents of girls need to do the same. I hope that you raise your daughter without vilifying men so that she can establish healthy relationships in the future (romantic and otherwise).
Julie, you are dead wrong. First of all, these aren’t broad generalizations, they are informed parenting choices based on some ugly statistics that I’m guessing you are unaware of. I don’t suggest that every parent needs to make these choices, but I do expect that a logical person would understand why these choices aren’t crazy.
I’m setting boundaries in my parenting specifically so that my daughter won’t have to fear men. I’m not vilifying them at all, I’m simply removing the question marks specifically SO THAT she will be able to have trusting, loving relationships in the future. The argument that she’s going to fear men or have fucked up relationships with them because I’m not leaving her alone with male babysitters is laughable! I was never once alone with my grandfather and I had an extremely close relationship with him.
I would be setting the same boundaries for my sons, FYI. 93% of perpetrators are men. 90% are close friends/relatives. 1 in 6 boys will be sexually abused before 18. (1 in 3 girls)
You are absolutely right about one thing though - both boys and girls should be taught to respect other people and about sexual consent and to have confidence in their judgement. Until my kids are old enough to implement their own choices, I’m free to decide whom to trust with them and it’s not crazy. It’s not damaging.
Elizabeth..some advice
1) Take head
2) Remove from own ass.
Thanks.
Great points dana. You make some realllly great, eloquent, thoughtful points. Thanks for making such a profound impact on me and others (surely). Good luck in your endeavors.
ps. you weren’t driving into the out way at a post office a few weeks ago, were you? Your tone sounds super familiar….
Dana… you’re trash baggin’ it buddy. Back to the dumpster with ya.
Trash. Bag.
WTF Elizabeth, you rock. Ignore this trash bag.
This feels frivolous now, but on the issue of shaving privates, I am a guy who shaves, and as such, it feels weird to me that you guys are so mystified by it. The main reason for me is quite simple and obvious (i thought), and also why I prefer my partner to do the same….
….I mean….no one wants hair in their mouth, right? That’s gross, right?
Yeah, keep it orderly and such. It doesn’t need to be gardened into submission. Just some upkeep will do me (and her) fine.
It’s not about letting fear dictate your life. Unfortunately we live in a patriarchal society that celebrates rape culture. I don’t blame the writer inner for not wanting to be alone with her roommate’s boyfriend and his friends. Our society takes every opportunity to blame women for being alone with a man should something happen to her. And even if the writer inner didn’t feel threatened, those people are not on the lease nor do they pay bills at the apartment. She has every right to tell them to gtfo. She should feel comfortable in the apartment she pays for.
As a man I just get frustrated when the “default” attitude towards me is that I’m a rapist or a child molester until proven otherwise.
I understand that many women feel this ways a way to protect themselves or their children from harm but as a guy that has no interest in these attitudes towards women and children, ain’t gonna lie, it sucks.
I totally understand, Jack! My genuine hope is that this sort of dialogue will spark a movement that will create change. Hopefully we won’t live in a world where women/parents have to feel leery of someone based on gender. The reason we do is - well, I think this tweet from @Wagnerfilm during the #yesallwomen campaign does a better job of summarizing:
“UNFAIR! NOT ALL MEN!” Imagine a bowl of M&Ms. 10% of them are poisoned. Go ahead. Eat a handful. Not all M&Ms are poison. #YesAllWomen
So is there something that male teachers/coaches should be doing in this movement? What happens if your child is the last one to be picked up from after-care/detention/softball/play practice and the teacher is male? Obviously you talk to your children, but from the male perspective, what can they do?
So many great points on gender inequality and feminism here. For me the roommate situation is at a base level unfair and doesn’t necessarily land on gender. I would be just as unhappy if my roommate were a lesbian and her girl friend had a key and invited her friends over. I would feel intruded on and disrespected.
It would depend on my relationship with the people to determine my level of discomfort in being alone with them, safety wise. People are weird in all kinds of different ways and can make you feel uneasy and violated. A roommate situation is already a compromise of predictability and this writer inner deserves better, bounce.
This was my thought as well. No one should have a key to a place unless they live there. Period. This was a huge violation to the writer-inner.
Trash bag move by the roomie!
I get that this discussion needs to happen and it’s a VERY important one but I have to say I miss the old days of Totally Married. When we talked about random hookups, obnoxious friends and shitty mother in laws. I understand that as someone who has a public voice Elizibeth wants to reach as many people as possible but I just wish there was another avenue for it. I come to Totally Married to get a couple giggles and lighten up my day, the last few episodes I’ve felt myself more and more wanting to turn it off. I am totally on board with the conversation and agree that there has to be a change and the change won’t start until the conversation is started but I just don’t want to get bummed out and dragged down when I come here, I come to Totally Married to get uplifted and laugh a little at Andy’s random “bounce” comments and Elizabeth’s giggling fits.
I also understand that this is just where Elizabeth is at this moment in her life and if it’s on her mind shes giong to bring it up when she feels triggered to bring it but but again, just bums me out.
No hard feelings I have much love for E&A and that aboslutly adorable baby Oprah.
Just a random comment that I, too, am fascinated by the bald vagina thing. I had NO idea that young women were doing this now. I feel so out of it and so old. I am the same age as you, Elizabeth, and I guess I just figured that trim and neat was good, but bald was for porn. I have no judgement against anyone that is doing this, just a real eye-opener. I have to wonder if there are other girls in that generation who are not doing this. It can’t be all of them. Anyway, always something new to learn on this show! LOL Love you guys!
I had to chime in on this hot debate. While I totally understand Elizabeth’s perspective (it is her and Andy’s parenting choice to make, after all), I can also see how men do not appreciate being lumped into the category of child molesters and rapists. However, I believe that men who feel offended should consider standing up in greater defense of women and feminism instead of trying to “tone down” the women who are trying to call out the fears and gaslighting that happens to women every day, just because they live in this world. Instead of being offended or starting NotAllMen campaigns, etc. these men could join the cause to stop inappropriate behavior by raising their voices against it. Start by reading this comic:
http://www.robot-hugs.com/harassment/
Then, lobby schools to teach young men about consent and how catcalls/slurs are damaging. Stand up for your female friends and relatives when they feel scared or preyed upon. Call out your friends for using misogynistic language. Believe when we say that we love men, but sometimes they make us afraid. Know that we aren’t talking about you, but we need you to support us and validate that we experience sexism daily. Don’t divide us; join us.
Well said, Maureen!
I don’t understand the negative reactions Elizabeth is getting by giving voice to some pretty valid concerns.
I’ve been crossing the street when I see a man walking towards me for at least the last 20 years. I’m sick of listening to men in the world tell me that my gut instinct is silly because, #notallmen. The men in my life who are closest to me never try to minimize fear I feel because they know that not everything is about them, but let’s face it, #notallmen are like that.
Well said, Elle.
I feel like Elizabeth is getting a lot of heat for saying aloud something that most moms already DO. After hearing Elizabeth’s stance on this, I realized my 20 month old has never been alone with any men except my husband (her father) and my father (the best dad EVER 🙂 This was not a conscious decision I’ve made. There truly aren’t even any circumstances that have come up where I would have had to make a decision either way.
Thank you, Elizabeth for opening a dialog about men, women, safety and consent. It needs to be talked about. Men need to hear how this really impacts women. They need to understand what it’s like to be uncomfortable just because of your gender. It’s not fun. And many women live with that underlying feeling of uneasiness every single day. I’m not walking around in fear or anything, but I’m hyper aware, all the time. I’m watching the people around me, and I’m aware of the situations I’m in, every single day. I think a lot of men really don’t understand that. And if they need to feel bad about themselves for a half hour out of their week to get some sort of understanding of what it’s like being a woman, then fine by me. It’s for the greater good. If those same men then go on to foster open communication with their children about respect of all people and consent, then consider it time well spent.
Agreed.
- a man
My head is spinning just a bit after all the readings. I do have an important question. This topic has come up in my psyche quite a bit lately as the father of a 9 year old boy who’s growing up in an ever-increasingly sexualized society. How do I begin the talk with him? When do I have the talk with him? My father kinda sorta awkwardly had the talk with me when I was young, but it wasn’t until I had been walked in on masturbating under my covers. Yikes :/
Little did my parents know, I had already lost my virginity by the time I was 5. Censorship wasn’t a huge concern back then so I feel like I was exposed to too much adult content at an inappropriate age, exposing me to feelings and an awareness that I should’ve been protected from. I’ve been very diligent about censorship as a parent… We don’t watch rated R, I’m always on the lookout for why things are rated PG-13 & R. If sexual anything is indicated, it’s a NO watch for us. That’s just a no-brainer for me, but sadly in today’s day and age, sex is heavily infused into our commercial and pop culture, because “it sells.” That’s fucked up because it makes it a challenge to avoid it entirely, so every now and again, there it is in one form or another. It’s insidious and I don’t like it. It makes my son very uncomfortable as well, as it should… He’s a little boy who appreciates the fact that he’s a child, and neither he nor I want that taken from him. So what do I do as a protecting dad? Even with all our efforts, it still at the bare minimum enters into his peripheral sometimes, be it through kids at school, advertising, while watching tv sometimes… It’s become unavoidable almost, and I don’t want there to be a moment that presents itself in his life that tells me “ok. Have the talk now.” I’m afraid that if I wait that long, it’ll be kinda too late. At the same time, I’m afraid of having the talk too soon, but it’s been something that’s been on my mind for quite some time now, especially with all these issues that have been cropping up in the podcasts. Look around, shit like this outrages people, so it’s an obvious concern and for very valid reasons. We all want our children to be safe and well educated people who are honest, diligent and treat others with respect and dignity. He’s a good boy… I just need help with this one. I don’t want him to lose what makes him so great. He has the potential to grow up to be one heroic fella, so how do I educate him and help protect his innocence? As a man, I’m not offended by women’s concerns and vigilance. I feel like a lot of us men have those same concerns and worries. I know a lot of great dudes, so don’t get me wrong. I just want what’s best for my son, so he can be amongst the proud ones who can hold his head high because he rises above, and treats people right.
I’m not a parent, so I don’t honestly know how to go about this, but I think instead of having “the talk” with your child, try to make it an open dialog. When he asks questions, be honest. Don’t be afraid to talk about sex or how our bodies work. Make it a part of every day life and not some huge thing that needs to be embarrassing or taboo.
I look back on how I really learned form my parents, and it wasn’t just one instance where they imparted some piece of wisdom on me. It was the example they set, the way we did things or talked about things in our house that really shaped me and taught me.
Brian, this might be a useful site: http://raisingchildren.net.au/articles/raising_sexually_healthy_children_an_overview.html/context/562
I have younger children (6 and 4) but have found it a good reference for age-appropriate discussions about sex, bodies, etc.
My own general approach has to be factual, use real names for body parts, and like Bethany says below just to be honest.
I was at a party last night where another parent was SHOCKED that my daughter calls her vagina, well, a vagina… So I think there’s a long road ahead on appropriate sex education for parents, let alone kids!
I actually had a similar situation with the roommate issue. I live with two other girls and there was the sneaking suspicion that one girl’s boyfriend had a key and we hadn’t been consulted about it at all. Both of the girls I live with had gone on a vacation overseas and I had my mother visiting. Close to midnight, with no prior warning, the boyfriend came into the apartment to pick up things he had left.
Now, I trust this person, but this stepped over the boundaries I was comfortable with. My mother had woken up and was about to call the police because she thought we were being robbed.
I agree with Elizabeth that this is a safety issue. Not that I believe this person or his friends would harm me etc, but there are other angles to it.
As a female living in a city and expecting to be home alone, a person coming into the house uninvited would prompt me to call the cops or smack said “intruder” with the snow shovel by the door. Additionally, what if this person (who is not paying rent) is negligent and leaves a door unlocked etc. This could lead further issues.
Anyway, I found that calmly talking to my roommate and her boyfriend worked out well. I just explained that it was nothing against the boyfriend, but there are boundaries.
I’m a little late to this discussion since I just heard the episode today. I was only disappointed that Elizabeth felt she had to defend her gut instinct. The advice and the whole feeling that the roommate was put in an unsafe situation was spot on. But just as racism is the problem that needs to be addressed by the white majority, sexism and sex abuse of women and girls (yesallwomen is real!) is an issue that needs to be truly addressed by men. Witness the backlash of the video of the woman being catcalled in New York. I was a younger woman in New York many years ago and it was horrendous, the calls, the heckling (and I was wearing a business suit, for goodness sakes on my way to a job interview). It really is about power and bullying, not about any real desire to get to know someone or compliment them. Elizabeth, you and Andy have a baby daughter. I have a teenager, and she already has been catcalled when she’s on the train going to and from school. She has already been told to always pay attention, and not to be afraid to loudly yell GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME! if harassed. I’ve told her to let someone (everyone) know if she’s made to feel uncomfortable, because a lot of the harassment (secret groping, etc.) comes when women are intimidated into taking it quietly so as not to make a scene. I always tell her to make a scene if need be. Yes, we need to educate our sons to be vigilant about respecting girls and women (and each other), take no for an answer, and we can do that. But we need to empower our girls so they won’t be afraid to simply walk down a street.
Hi guys…I’m sure this has been said already…in several different ways. It is totally understandable that your perspective comes from being parents of a daughter. However, my oldest child is a son. To send him the message that he is not to be trusted purely based on his gender is totally unacceptable to me. That babysitting is a job only for females? What is feminist about that? We are New Zealanders, and although the statistics here are the same as the US (and the world over, I imagine) I thank my lucky stars that we have friends who welcome our gorgeous boy into their home, to play soccer with their kids, to read to them and to stay in the house while the young ones sleep. Our own best babysitter was a gorgeous boy himself. Our male population will NEVER be strengthened by removing them from interacting with children. And on a side note, I recently heard a talk from a man who was abused by a female in his formative years. He now works in a counselling role for other men who have suffered abuse from women. He estimated that in his 20 years doing this he he had counselled 1500 men. How many of those men had reported the crime (and therefore made a statistic)? ONE. Statistics only work when crimes have been reported. This has been a hot debate, Elizabeth…stand strong, hon, you’re doing a great job!
I usually think of the abusers as the boyfriend of the mother or stepfather, etc because these people can seek out a relationship with a mother of a young child. I googled it because I was interested, after listening to the podcast, in finding out what the actual statistics are out there about perpetrators. Apparently we shouldn’t be leaving children alone with their biological fathers either since that makes up 51% of perpetrators of child abuse…
This is a study of perpetrators which I found to have interesting statistics.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/05/child-maltreat/report-text.htm#Previous
Elizabeth, please please please keep being “that person”. Not enough people are “that person”. Saying “not all men are ________” is obvious, lazy, and beside the point. Continue to say what you think on these issues.
Hey Elizabeth,
I thought you might enjoy this video on consent. I think it is a great tool for talking to others (especially teenagers!) about what consent is:
http://magazine.good.is/articles/tea-never-looked-so-good